We are here in the Peace Palace in The Hague, the cathedral of international law. When did you first become acquainted with the Peace Palace?

Alanna O'Malley: "I am from Ireland and, as a student, I knew the pictures, of course. In 2011, I came to The Hague as a participant in a conference at the Peace Palace that bears the name of Dag Hammerskjöld, a UN secretary-general whom I greatly admire for his courage and decisiveness. Everything came together. As a young academic, I got to give my first public lecture in the Small Courtroom. The whole environment of the Peace Palace - with all its aura and austerity - was incredibly inspiring."

Jozias van Aartsen: "I am terribly Hague-based, so of course I know the Peace Palace well. I loved cycling past it as a boy, because even then I thought it was a special and beautiful building. But I can't remember very well when I first really went inside. I felt the same as most residents of The Hague: the gates are closed, you can't get in. I think I entered the Peace Palace for the first time as foreign minister."

Special Professor Alanna O'Malley: 'The conclusion is, anyway, that the United Nations is very far removed from ordinary people'

A palace closed to the people by a big fence does have a certain symbolism: the United Nations is not close to the people.

O'Malley: "For decades, the United Nations has been seen as an organisation primarily concerned with peacekeeping, a kind of talking shop that in practice delivers nothing, and also costs a lot of money. The UN is said to be all about diplomacy, an incomprehensible world, out of sight on the other side of the ocean, in New York. Either way, the conclusion is that the United Nations is very distant from ordinary people. That image does great injustice to reality. The United Nations is active in many areas, especially with economic and social development programmes around the world, and is very successful at it. That side of the story is completely snowed under by the Western media's strong focus on the Security Council, which for a range of political reasons exhibits a tremendous inability to act. People thus get a distorted view of the UN."

Read also: How does the gardener of the Peace Palace live? 75 years of the UN

Van Aartsen: "It is exactly as Alanna says. I was also once Minister of Agriculture and then saw for myself what the World Food Program entails - an incredibly important element in the UN's work - we in the Netherlands have no idea about that. But the same goes for the International Court of Justice, which has its seat in the Peace Palace. I sometimes have the impression that people think the Peace Palace is the UN headquarters. It is also difficult to tell all these different parts of the UN and other international organisations apart."

Former mayor Jozias van Aartsen: 'There are a lot of people coming to the event who would like to get the 'feel' of the building that houses the highest body of the United Nations.'

"That is why I think it is such a huge shame that the Peace Palace is still not open every day. It attracts many people who would like to get the 'feel' of the building that houses the highest body of the United Nations. This is the opportunity to really educate people. As mayor of The Hague, I entered into talks with the presidents of the Court. There is now a visitor centre, and sometimes there are guided tours. But the gates are still too often closed."

Alanna O'Malley, you are associate professor of United Nations: Peace and Justice Studies, a chair of Leiden University and The Hague University of Applied Sciences named after Jozias van Aartsen. What is wrong with our picture of the genesis of the United Nations?

Laughs: "A lot, but I will be brief. When the history of the United Nations is told, we always hear the story about the Allies who emerged from the war as glorious winners, and who, under the leadership of the Americans, decided together to set up an organisation to prevent another war. But that is a little too simplistic. We must realise that the superpowers were well outnumbered by the countries of the southern hemisphere. These were not without opinion at the table. All I am saying is that we should stop thinking that the West created the UN and imposed its will. From the beginning, the UN has been a global organisation, not an Anglo-American party. That is a very different starting point, which sounds more inviting to the rest of the world."

"Immediately after the war, you saw a strong trend towards justice, towards strengthening international law, and the Nuremberg trial is the first example of that. Many preparations in that international law were done here, in The Hague, in the Peace Palace. So from the very beginning, The Hague played an important role in the development of legislation for the United Nations, so it was really a UN city even then. But because it took place behind that beautiful fence in that inaccessible palace, that has unfortunately become less known."

Jozias van Aartsen, when did you get the realisation that The Hague was a UN city?

"If I'm being completely honest, that realisation really came a bit later. It just wasn't common knowledge at the time, it wasn't alive. Wim Deetman got his idea for the international city of law and peace from a speech by secretary-general Boutros Ghali in the Grote Kerk, in which he argued that The Hague was the legal capital of the world. It is strange that we all did not have that in focus, when the UN is such an important institution. Therefore, as mayor, I have always been very keen to educate about the international city of law and peace, about the United Nations."

"It is important that school children come here, at the Peace Palace, to learn what the UN stands for. That is why I am so happy that when I stepped down as mayor, I was given the chair that Alanna does such a fantastic job of fulfilling. She not only does scientific research on the UN, but has also developed a programme for schools in the underprivileged neighbourhoods of The Hague."

The Hague is keen to raise awareness of the United Nations anniversary. What can we expect?

O'Malley: "It will be a very varied programme, also because there are many international organisations in The Hague, and they all want to do something. In the first six months, we are aiming especially at youth, with expert meetings on peacekeeping, climate, education and gender."
"The United Nations is taking advantage of its 75th anniversary to start a dialogue on what the world should look like in 25 years, and what the UN should look like. We really want to put that discussion on the map in The Hague and prepare ourselves well for key elements in this discussion. This is the time when the UN is listening and open to change. So we need to make sure that we can hand over a strong story that the UN will benefit from, so that things can change for the better."

Van Aartsen: "An important part of the programme will be the 75 stories for the UN. The idea is to give actors from The National Theatre a role in them. The most important day is October 24, because on that day in 1945, the 51 countries ratified the United Nations manifesto. That's when we really want to turn out. We hope Samantha Powers will come to talk about her role at the UN. For that woman, I have always had enormous admiration. She played an important role in the Security Council and has written great books, on the Balkans and Rwanda."

O'Malley: "That would be really great. Samantha Powers is a fantastic woman with an amazing track record as a diplomat, but also academically, who won the Pulitzer Prize, who stood up for the underprivileged in the Security Council. The way she dried off men like Sergei Lavrov in the debate, that was amazing. Truly a power woman!"

Finally, since we are talking about an anniversary: what do you wish for the United Nations?

Van Aartsen: "Can I make it very simple? More Samantha Powers, more women, more people who dare to take responsibility, take a stand against inhumanity. That's basically the whole story."

O'Malley: "It is high time to polish the image of the United Nations a bit again, so that people can really see all that this global organisation achieves. Of course, by no means everything is going well, many things can be improved. But a lot is also going well. Most importantly, it is the place where almost all countries come together to solve conflicts, to tackle problems. Without the UN, the world will not be a better place."